HEATHER EWING: The CRE RUNdown
Are you intrigued by Commercial Real Estate? Join Heather Ewing, CCIM each week as she dives into CRE trends, Deals, and Developments throughout Madison, WI. Learn the crucial role of Mindset in CRE and Marathons! Success leaves Clues.
HEATHER EWING: The CRE RUNdown
Ep. 18 Sue Springman: The Architect of Madison's Downtown Renaissance
A Madison native, Susan’s 40+ year career has spanned executive level positions in the private and public sectors including having been an assistant to a State Senator, Madison Mayoral Assistant and Administrator at the State Department of Administration managing all state owned real estate and state agency leases in privately owned buildings. Susan had a passion for urban redevelopment and Madison’s downtown having served as the Executive Director of the Central Madison Council now named Downtown Madison Inc. before she obtained her real estate brokerage license in 1982. She then began her career working over the years for three different Dane County based family owned real estate development, management and brokerage firms. Most of Susan’s real estate work has been in Madison’s downtown including several Class A office buildings and the 1.2 million square foot University Square development.
Welcome to Heather Ewing, the CRE rundown Today. I have a special guest, sue Springman's of the Mullins Group. She is the senior project manager, but in our time together today you will notice this woman has done it all in just a wonderful way. So, sue welcome. Thank you, definitely so as we jump in today. We've known each other for a while but if you can share with our guests, share a little bit more about your history and lineage within Madison.
Speaker 2:Well, I'm actually a native. I was born here, I went to high school here, I went to the University of Wisconsin-Madison. I actually graduated with a degree in journalism. That's what I thought I wanted to do when I grew up, and my first career position, I would say, is I worked in the legislature for a state senator and as part of my duties I staffed a small business subcommittee and I became really interested in how the public and the private sector either worked together or didn't work together Lots of public policy questions and I found that very fascinating. And from there I went to become the executive director of what was called at that time the Central Madison Council, which is now called Downtown Madison Inc. And my 30-member board of directors consisted of a lot of developers, people in real estate, and our focus was on revitalizing the downtown.
Speaker 2:Because at that time and I've been involved in this industry for about 45 people, I've been working for about 45 to 50 years, so I'm up there and I've been around for a while but downtown was in really bad shape. So in the suburbanization of the city started all across the country and malls were being built and while the downtown had been the place to shop in earlier years and when I grew up it was the place to hang out on Saturdays. It was going away and I became fascinated with urban redevelopment and from there I was asked to join the mayor's office and the mayor assigned me to the Department of Planning and Development where I learned inside and out how you went through the city to get a project approved and we also did the first urban redevelopment with private and public sector, now called the Capital Center, and got involved in lots of different projects with developers and tax incremental financing was first introduced. We had the first TIF project, which was a condo project, actually on the lake, and then from there what happened is because my husband worked for a law firm and one of his colleagues was the board of directors of a local real estate company, actually the Munz Corporation. He knew that the mayor was my mayor, wasn't going to run again and I was going to be looking for work and he said you should hire her, she'd be good at helping you with the city etc.
Speaker 2:And I got hired by the Munz Corporation and I knew nothing really about how the private sector, private development, worked, I felt, and he threw me into the company and I learned all aspects of it, from development, helping them to build the projects, getting through the city, property management and I got my commercial brokers license in 1982. So that was how I first got into it and from there I worked for three family owned real estate companies locally based, and I also went back to work for the state of Wisconsin and ran their real estate portfolio, which encompassed all state owned buildings and the private leasing Get around Definitely Well, and the thing that's so nice too is you have such a wealth of knowledge, experience.
Speaker 1:You've been so helpful with all the different groups, the DMI. You and I served together on the bid board, the business improvement district here in downtown Madison. We're in networking together, and so I think it's really neat just how you really touched so many lives, so many different positions. And that's also where all of that knowledge that you have is so important, because a lot of people don't understand how to navigate the municipal process.
Speaker 2:And I think what's a little bit different about me is I see the private side, but I also see the public side, and trying to merge the two so that both interests are taken into account. I think it's really important in the development of the city in terms of how it ultimately looks. It's not just how we, as a developer, want it to be, and it's not necessarily just how the city wants it to be, because each side individually doesn't seem to understand the others. But I've been on both sides and I feel like I know that much better than a lot of people, and so I try to bring that to the table and I think it has helped.
Speaker 1:Oh, it's a huge asset, because I think so many times when you think, even whether it's different brokerage negotiations or getting different developments, the ability to build them, it's really being able to position yourself and see through the eyes of the other side. And I think that's where a lot of people fall down is, one, they don't have that experience. And two, I think they just won't put themselves in that position to be able to illuminate the problems and then also find creative ways to solve them.
Speaker 1:And if you're going to be a developer, you have to learn how to go through a municipal or a public process, because you just have to and you can either fight your way through it and maybe never get through it, or you can try to understand what the other side is trying to achieve and try to talk to them about what you need to achieve and try to come to some compromise, and that's usually how most projects get done Definitely and I think that's an area you've excelled in too is really creating the long term relationships which, especially for a town the size of Madison, relationships really do matter, and people want to work with people they know, like and trust, and so I think it's a whole new currency that is kind of coming back through and people are really acknowledging how important those relationships are to get things done and I think also quality of life.
Speaker 2:Definitely, and Madison's changing. Madison's growing hugely. I mean it's really become much more regional than just local and I mean I worked for three family-owned businesses and, quite honestly, in my early years it was locally owned real estate companies that controlled the most of what was happening in real estate development. That's not the case anymore. Madison's attracting a lot of regional developers and national developers. It's very much changing and we need to keep our eye on what that is and where it's going and be a part of that.
Speaker 1:I agree because it's going to happen one way or another. Exactly, and if you think about it now, right, with Olive under construction, opening this summer, that's another infusion of approximately a thousand beds which completely changes that 300 block where I mean, as you know, it was always kind of the dead zone between the top and the bottom of State Street. So it's nice to see new life being breathed into that section.
Speaker 2:I think the big question out there is what is State Street going to be into the future? I mean, it transformed itself when they rebuilt State Street in the Capital Square 45 some years ago and its uses continue to evolve. There's a lot of big projects that are going to anchor it into the future, like the History Museum and the Bet Center. Of course we've got the University on one and we've got Overture. We've got Music Venues, comedy Club, restaurants.
Speaker 2:But the first two blocks the 300 block, 400 and 506, they're very different in terms of the market and the student population is a big influence on it. But they don't go all the way up the street and with the changing pattern of workers downtown, you know the state has really disinvested itself in a lot of the office space downtown or planned to through selling their buildings. We still have private office space, but remote work, you know, has an impact on those top blocks. Fortunately, we have a large residential base and it's not just student, it's people of all ages and lifestyles and that is, I think, the foundation that will give us strength into the future. It's something most downtowns don't have. We are fortunate, very fortunate, to have it.
Speaker 1:Well, and I think to that point, even when you take a look back at COVID, you know recent past. In that sense, all of these facets that you're mentioning really help to provide stability. Not to say that we didn't get hit hard also, but compared to other states within the nation, we definitely were able to bounce back much more quickly, which I think is the testament to that varied base, and I think too, there's a lot of people yourself myself, you know other members of the bid, dmi and just you know other people that we know companies that we genuinely care and we've invested a lot of our lives in doing what we can to help promote the downtown, to continue making it an elevated experience, and I think things like that really do matter.
Speaker 2:I agree. I actually think for myself personally that helping the downtown be strong economically and you know just its whole quality of life has been my whole focus of my life, outside of the job that has to pay the bills, being involved in DMI and helping to create the bid and just being active in much of what has gone on downtown. I agree.
Speaker 1:What would you like to see come into the downtown? So I always joke that I'm shopping on a grand scale because I'm out, reaching out to you know whether it's local, regional and nationals to bring them to Madison or expand within what might be one or two operators or even a category that you would like in the downtown.
Speaker 2:Well, I think we're really missing a lot of clothing for non-students and the goods that people who live down here need, and I'm hoping it will come as the population has grown and will continue to grow, and I don't know so much how many of those will be locally owned businesses. Although you look at Monroe Street and some of these small neighborhood commercial areas that they've had locally grown, brand new businesses pop up and I'd love to see some of those down on State Street. I'm not really looking at any great big national and I'm thinking of the downtown versus. You know, hilldale has really kind of taken over so much of the apparel world and Madison's not that big Would. I love to take a lot of that and put it down here, yes, but it probably wouldn't be as successful. You know, I'd like to see more apparel down here. There really isn't much. I used to be able, if I needed something, I could run out to one of the stores. I can't anymore, right.
Speaker 1:I can't anymore, no it's so true, that's where it feels like you're, either at Hilldale or when you take a vacation shopping or making a road trip to Chicago or something like that for it.
Speaker 2:I think, more than what's in the buildings, one of the things that we need to do is to really focus on rebuilding the infrastructure of State Street, because that was done almost 50 years ago. I know there's an experiment to close the street on the 4 to 600 block, but I think that is just a very minor piece of what needs to be looked at at the street, because it is the main street down here and it connects the University of the Capitol and it will always be critical to the future of the downtown. We need to ask ourselves what do we want it to be?
Speaker 2:and then work towards that goal. I feel like we haven't done that.
Speaker 1:Right. It's like having the big vision and then tactically breaking it down into the pieces, the right organizations, the right people, and start bringing that to fruition. I agree, it's like, I'm glad at least it's the 4 to 600 block yet this year.
Speaker 2:but like yourself, I don't know much about your visions. Yeah, state Street has to be looked at as a unit. Ultimately, we can't just look at a couple blocks at a time. They need to all go together. They may not be all the same, but there needs to be something that ties it together.
Speaker 1:I agree completely, so definitely, as I reflect on everything that you've contributed to Madison, to the businesses, the city, state Street, these different boards. What would you say are one or two things, from a mindset perspective, that have really helped you to excel through this time.
Speaker 2:I think you have to be open to other people's ideas and their thoughts, not to be closed, and to really listen to what people have to say. It's so easy to think, oh, this is the way it should be, but there are so many ideas out there and things are changing so rapidly in the world. You really have to open your mind and your eyes and be open to new things.
Speaker 1:Definitely, I agree. For whatever reason, what popped into my mind also, as you were saying that is just the changing technology. I was having this conversation the other day of AI and how it's coming into the QSRs, the fast casuals, a lot in the back of house, for example. Wendy's, though, is using it for their drive-thru. That made me start thinking of okay, how are we going to see that implemented in our downtown? Do you have any thoughts on that one?
Speaker 2:What would be interesting is if you could walk down the street I don't think people know what businesses are where and what products they sell. If there was a way on your phone you could walk by and that information would come up on your phone so that you would know to go into a location, because you're not going to go into every door.
Speaker 2:You can't really tell from the outside, by either a name or just what's in the window, what is there. If you had something you could look at and go. No, so punch in, this is what I'm looking for, and it would tell you where to go, because it's a long block. It's a mile long, whether it's not always perfect. Because we know, unfortunately, no, that's a great idea.
Speaker 1:I like that one Align those lines, too, of transitioning through the bid area, through the Madison area and beyond. What have you found in your world? What's your recipe for living fully? You've done so much and have touched so many people in such great ways. What's something that speaks to you for living fully?
Speaker 2:For me, I've always wanted to know what's going on in the world and in my community. I'm not somebody that I mean. I like to listen to the news, I like to be involved, like talking to people. I'm just that type of a person which helps me, I think, grow and also have more knowledge. And part of that also is to be tolerant and not to let things kind of fall off with me and not get all upset over something that maybe I'm not so sure about or I don't like, but to let things go so I can move on and keep thinking and keep putting things together. I think people get stuck.
Speaker 1:Oh, I agree completely. I mean, I think just even to when I got into commercial real estate years ago and a deal would blow up and it was so hard to keep forward because you naturally wanted to look back. But I learned very quickly if you look back, your future is decimated. So it's one of those. The power of focus, like you're bringing up, is really important in letting things slide off.
Speaker 2:And sometimes you don't have total control.
Speaker 1:No, no not at all. So, as we wrap things up, sue, what is? What are one or two pieces of advice for maybe someone that hasn't been to Madison or the downtown in a while? Or maybe, let's say, they've been living in the suburbs that just haven't got downtown. What's something that you want to bring to their attention?
Speaker 2:Well, having lived in I've lived in Wannakee for a long time and I am always amazed when I run into someone that says, oh, I'm not going downtown, there's nothing to see down there. I'm like, oh my God, you have no idea. We have so many activities outside of even walking into the buildings themselves and visiting the businesses when the weather is nice. Just coming down here on a beautiful day and walking between the university campus, the union, up to the capital square and around it will just make you, I think, fall in love with this city if you haven't already, or more in love if you already do love it. I mean, there's just so much to do. But even besides that, look at what's in these business, in these buildings. There are so many new stores. There are new stores and there's new things to do, new restaurants all the time. We have some great food and great restaurants down here. There's just always something that you can see and do here.
Speaker 1:I agree completely. I would say, for me there's just something about the capital when it's always that beacon of light and I don't know what it is, but despite all the years and I grew up in the area too it just speaks to my heart and I think it's so beautiful. So it is. You've heard it here from Sue and I If you haven't been downtown in a while, please do come down, whether it's snowing, whether it's a hot summer day. Sue, thank you so much for joining me today. It's always so nice to connect with you, and I hope that some of these pearls will definitely help bring more people to our downtown.
Speaker 2:Thank you for inviting me, heather. You bet Over here, so I fromMarkspotter. I like it, hi People.